Creative Intuition as an Anchor for Grief: Poetry, Presence and Quiet Truths | Katie Rizzo

FOR EPISODE LINKS & MORE INFO VISIT: https://samhorton.co/blog/ep127 

In this episode, I'm joined by Katie Rizzo, a former science teacher turned poet, whose life changed irrevocably when she lost her son Nicholas to addiction. Katie shares how poetry became the language she needed to grieve honestly, to stay close to Nicholas, and to slowly find her way back to herself. Her forthcoming memoir, The Trimesters of Grief, borrows the framework of pregnancy, the nausea, the numbness, the showing, to make sense of grief's own unfolding seasons. 

Three reasons to listen: 

1. Discover how Katie turned to poetry as a way to stay connected to her son and process grief she couldn't otherwise hold.
2. Hear how her background in biology gave her an unexpected language, turtles, ducklings, a tree Nicholas once helped plant, for understanding loss and transformation.
3. Learn why saying yes to community, even when everything in her wanted to withdraw, became essential to her healing.

Key takeaways:

• Creativity can become a bridge between the living and the people we've lost, offering a kind of connection that logic can't provide.
• Grief often moves in recognisable seasons or waves, and naming them can make them easier to carry.
• Letting go of the need to appear "put together" can open real space for authentic creative expression.
• Community and support groups, though confronting to step into, can transform isolation into shared meaning.
• You don't need years of training to be creative. You need honesty and presence.

Reflection question: What feeling have you been carrying without a place to put it, and what might happen if you gave it a form, a poem, a page, a picture?

FOR EPISODE LINKS & MORE INFO VISIT: https://samhorton.co/blog/ep127
 

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Ep 127- Katie Rizzo

[00:00:00]

In 2024, Katie Rizzo lost her firstborn son to addiction. She found that grief mirrored pregnancy. Uh, the first few months she had nausea as grief moved in, then there was a period of numbness followed by showing, where she wanted everyone to know 

She began writing poetry, something she had never done before, as a way to speak to him across the veil. Katie Rizzo's memoir, The Trimesters of Grief, is going to be released later this year. So welcome, Katie. Thank you. So let's just start with your story. and more specifically, tell us about, how creativity weaves into your journey as well.

Right. Great. Thanks. Um, well, as you said, I lost my son to addiction. and that was, you know, he struggled with addiction, but our family really struggled with it for a good four or five years before he accidentally overdosed. So it was a time where there was no creativity. Yeah. But also the time where there was just a lot of [00:01:00] shame, and I think Nicholas really was worried what other people thought of him and felt very embarrassed.

And I think my family took that on as well, and that's not a good place to be in if you're trying to be creative. I was a high school teacher, and, once Nicholas passed, I just couldn't do anything. I found myself, as you said, just numb and not doing well. The funny thing about this whole thing, or not so funny, but it, the interesting thing is, is that- My self-esteem just really changed.

Okay. So once Nicholas was gone, I felt like I could either stay inside and just, I don't know, pretend that it didn't happen or kind of feed into society and just be okay with, oh, you know, he had a problem with [00:02:00] self-will. There was a problem in our family. And, um... But instead, I, I, I really, um, I found this weird opening in poetry where I could sit down and kind of be close to him.

I wouldn't say it was, like, autonomic writing to him, but I definitely felt a connection. Mm-hmm. And I would sit down and write it, and then I did the craziest thing. I started posting things on Instagram and Facebook- Mm-hmm ... which is very public. Mm-hmm. And I, I, I got to a place where I just wanted to be real.

I didn't wanna be liked. I didn't want... I knew that there were other people out there hurting in the world, and I just wanted to be 100% who I was. And who that person was was somebody who loved her son, who loved her family. And you know, our oldest died of addiction, and I was like, "You know, this is who I am."

And it opened up a place in my world where I f- [00:03:00] felt like the only place I could be real was in creativity. And my husband is a scientist. He has a PhD, um, in physics, and so he's very logical. And all of a sudden, he started playing the guitar. He just- Okay ... took it up, started lessons. And our house has become a place where I do a lot of writing of poetry.

He does hundreds of hours of playing the guitar and practicing. And it's just this really... It's a new place for us. It's almost- Mm ... not like we believe that we could talk to Nicholas through the veil, but I'm not saying we don't. Like, it's, it's a non-logical, very open place to live. Okay. So, this season of your life, you know, it seems very much about finding purpose and meaning, if you like, from deep pain.

Yeah. So even though you would never ask for it, you know, do you think that pain in [00:04:00] this way has been your greatest catalyst for personal growth? Well, I'm definitely a different person. Mm-hmm. Um, I feel like I'm sure I have some ego left, but I feel like a lot of my ego is, is gone. I, um, I don't know. I, I feel like who I was before was this mom who was putting out in the world, you know, this is who we are.

We're a, quote, perfect family, or we tried hard. But with his death, there's just nothing left, right? Mm-hmm. There's not ... There isn't anything I can pretend. It, it, it was horrible. It was awful for all of us. My other two living sons, knock on wood, are doing okay. Um, but I want them to live big, full lives f- Full of happiness and I, I don't think you can do that when you're pretending [00:05:00] like, oh, we don't have addiction in our family- Yeah

or, you know, everybody's doing fine. And so do you think an element of that was in the life before was sort of like a denial of, you know, your, your truth? Oh, yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Like, there's so much, um ... I, I think there's Al-Anon everywhere. Al-Anon is a s- is a support group for people who love somebody with addiction, and before Nicholas passed, we would go and I would listen and be like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got this," but so much hope.

Like, this kid has to make it, and, um, when he didn't, it just- Mm ... there wasn't, there, it, that hope was gone. Yeah. Yeah. I've been amazed at how important community has been. Okay. How important my m- my family's been obviously. Um, but also connection with something bigger than myself, and I found that- Mm ... in [00:06:00] poetry and writing.

Mm-hmm. Um, and I think most of the people ... M- my husband and I joined a bunch of support groups for people who are grieving, and most of the people that we've met in them obviously have been, you know, their lives have been- Mm ... changed, but you, they, their lives have been changed in ways that you wouldn't have

We're all very similar. Most of us- Mm-hmm ... changed our jobs. Most of us have changed looking, what we find important. Mm-hmm. I mean, I used to think, um, I, both of my other two sons are getting grad school degrees, and now that's utterly ... I mean, it's lovely if that's what they want. Yeah. I just, I want them to be happy.

Like, find your, your peace. Mm. It's not a box that, you know, they have to tick anymore, whereas maybe it was before. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's powerful. And marriage and grandkids- Yeah ... I [00:07:00] would love them, but if that's not in the cards for them- Yeah ... that ... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. So then, you know, touching on, you know, creativity specifically, you know, how do you feel that creativity has helped you to find strength in this grief journey that you've been on?

Well, some of it is just that I feel, like, more open to the moment. Like, if I pay attention to what's happening, a lot of times I don't know what to do with it. For example, let's say, um, we live on a lake and there's a ton of little ducklings, and they keep getting born and then they keep dying, and it's just traumatizing to see this, like, terrible cycle of life.

I'm sure if I lived on a farm I would just be a wreck. Yeah. They don't all make it. Yeah. No. Yeah, it's very sad, and things need to be eaten in order to th- for bigger things to have food. So I don't know. [00:08:00] I, I think living in the moment and looking and watching what's happening- Mm-hmm ... is important. Um-

The duck example, a lot of times I'll, like, sit down and start a poem about the ducks. Like, what is it that's going on in the world that I need to be present to and observe? Mm-hmm. Um, and maybe that's a little sprinkle of Nicholas's essence talking to me, maybe not, I don't know. Mm. But I think my husband and I have been a lot more aware of what's going on.

Um, the other day there was a, a bald eagle that landed in our tree in the backyard, and I think normally we would've hustled off and been like, "That's cool," and gone to work. Mm-hmm. But, um, I think we're just more open to what's happening right here and how is it that I... What do I need to do with it?

Whether it's, [00:09:00] um, just appreciate it, whether it's- Mm ... share with other people, whether it's, um, maybe it's a sign from Nicholas like, "Hey, this is a part of your, your journey and maybe something you could think about." Mm, like a deeper awareness. That's really beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The thing that was coming up for me as you were just talking then was it's like finding light in the darkness.

So when something dark happens, like the, with the ducklings, you know? Yeah. It's kind of like how can I, how can I shift this and how can I see some light in it? And obviously your poetry is really helping you to find that light. Yeah. Would you agree with that? Yeah. 100%. A, a lot of times I'm trying to take what I'm seeing and apply it in my poetry.

Um- To understand it, to- Yeah ... feel it, to- To understand it ... witness it ... maybe to make a link. Like, yeah, for sure. Mm. And like, um, I'm not the only mom in the world who's lost a kid. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And there are tons of people out there who have had, you know, [00:10:00] devastating things happen to them way more worse than I've had.

What lesson, you know- Yeah ... w- why, why are we here to- Yeah ... to live lives where we're getting devastated? And maybe the only reason is to witness other things and try to figure out if there's patterns or- Yeah ... you know? Yeah. Yeah. I do. I do, I really do. Um- Um, so what, what's the journey of, you know, writing the book and really stepping into looking at your story maybe through a more creative and truthful lens, you know?

What does that really- Yeah ... reveal to you about yourself that you don't think you could've accessed any other way? Well, in the book I talk about how I started off with, you know, all these layers of ego- Mm-hmm ... and how, you know, the, great science teacher, the mom who's got it all together.

Yeah. And how, like, all of that, you know, once Nicholas left, the question is, am I [00:11:00] still a mom? Was I a good one? Like, what's ... You know, I had a lot of questions about who I really was. Mm-hmm. And I think some of those are important to answer, 

 'cause when you put your art out there and you say, "Hey, this is me"- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... you, you can't have any preconceived notions of, "And this is how I want you to perceive me." It's, "This is me. You do w- Yeah ... what, what you want with it" What do you see? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What do you see?

What do you feel? Like, I'm sure with ... Yeah, with your podcast, I'm sure you put that out, and you'll get positive and negatives, and I don't know if you even care. Maybe you're, like, really evolved- ... and you're like, "Hey, this is art. Here it is." Mm. But it's... Yeah, it's been interesting to have- But do you think you're doing it-

back on ... more for yourself than for, for other people to see it? Well- Do you know what I mean? Like, are you- I think both. Yeah.[00:12:00]

Yeah, it's both. I think both. So- But- Yeah, I think- But does it start from maybe, like, navigating your own kind of inner journey, and then you think- Yeah ... actually this could help other people, so that's why you're sharing it, right? Yeah, that's it. Yeah. That's it. So I'm in a support group. It's called LIT, Love in the Trenches.

Mm-hmm. It's for parents who lost a kid to addiction. Yep. And, um, I co-facilitate a group of writers, and we all get together and write about- Mm ... our losses. And, you know, if you bring something to that group, if it's not real, you know, it's- Yeah ... they're, they won't tear you apart, but they'll be like, "Why, why are you bringing this?

This is, you know, fluff." Yeah, yeah. So you have to be, you have to come in with something really raw and honest. And I think, I think that's been really important in my journey. So the, my book is part memoir, so just part, like, this is what I went through. This is when people say, "Oh, I could never imagine."

Well, here it is. Like it is- Yeah ... [00:13:00] it is as, as terrible as you would think, and it's possible, hopefully, that people can, can still find a reason to keep going. Mm-hmm. I don't know if you saw it in the news, there was just recently a woman who did assisted suicide because her son died, and, uh, that, that kills me.

Mm. Um, I've been to a bunch of grief groups with moms who are just what I called my second trimester, just closed up, laying in bed. And I think there are tons of times when I, I still need to go back to that. Mm. But, uh, I don't know. Why are we here? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Is it, is it to lay in bed and be sad? No.

No. And I don't think Nicholas would want me to. Yeah. So I really wanted the book to maybe give people hope and see some tools that I've used and that I've learned about that could maybe help people. Yeah. [00:14:00] Or that there's light coming, you know? There's light coming further ahead on the journey, um- Yeah

if they're in a really dark place. Like, that's really powerful, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I would say that- Probably, I don't ... I have a, an, a really good friend who lost her, just lost her son. I, I'm in a lot of grief groups, so I have a lot of- But the thing is this, I don't think you can do this alone.

You just- Mm ... you can't. And I, my friends who are like, "I don't wanna do a grief group, I'm not a social person," I, I wasn't a social person. Yeah. Like, I used to feel like my life is complete and full. I've got these three great kids. I've got a good marriage. Like, I've got two dogs. I'm good. But you cannot walk this alone.

No. You've gotta, you've gotta, um, say yes to your community, no matter how painful it is to go to groups. Um- Mm ... Nick and I went to Sweden to a, a grief retreat, and [00:15:00] sitting in a house full of parents who all lost their kids, and looking into their eyes, and knowing that they're going off and doing things too, and trying to build something out of the rubble, it was very impactful.

Mm, I'm sure. Yeah. It's become part of your identity though, right? It- So you've gotta find people that kind of mirror that identity in a way. Yeah. Um, otherwise you just feel really isolated. Is that kind of- Yeah ... yeah, what, where- Yeah ... where you're going with that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's so powerful. Yeah. It's big stuff, though.

It's very deep, right? And it must be confronting for other people in your life sometimes to sit there and witness your journey too. Yeah, it is. Which is another reason. My dad ... Yeah. Yeah. My, I, I post a lot of poems on Instagram and Facebook, and my dad, he's, um, in his mid-80s, and he sometimes he'll say like, "Okay, when is this over?"

You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, get over it already. Yeah. Yeah. Or, you know- Yeah ... um, or, "That one wasn't very good. I [00:16:00] wouldn't put that out there." And I, I understand. Like, this is- And also, I don't understand, right? Like, Nicholas is never coming back. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and my job right now, I feel like is to, to witness that and- Mm-hmm

to try to move on a- as completely and as honestly as I can. Uh, one of my nieces texted me the other day and said, "This is exactly how I've been feeling about Nicholas." And so I don't know. Like, maybe if you don't wanna see it, don't look at it. And- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... but, but maybe that's what art is about, right?

Is here's this thing that I think is real and raw, and if you, if it doesn't make you comfortable, you don't need to look at it. Yeah. And if it, if it speaks to you, then good. Yeah. And that, that's how you know it's coming from a really authentic place, I think, as well, right? Because you're [00:17:00] not attached to, um, e- external validation, right?

Yeah. Mm-hmm. And a lot of times I'll think like, "Okay, Nicholas, what do you think? Is this, is this what I'm, what, what I'm supposed to be learning, or is, is this real?" Like, and sometimes I'll get a feeling like, you know, save that for later. And other times I'll get a feeling of like, yeah, like in my heart, this is really connected to what is true.

Mm-hmm. Like the difference between wallowing too long, you know, versus actually just expressing it and releasing it and letting it drift off, you know- Yeah ... to where it needs to settle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. So what do you think needed to happen within yourself, um, for you to, uh, really own your creative process and write about your truth in this way?

I think mostly it's looking at the world and being [00:18:00] present. Yeah. I think besides letting go of my ego, but mostly being pres- present and, and looking at what's happening every day. Um, I think it's important to Nicholas every day and talk about him and- Mm-hmm ... I think that the more in touch I am with him and my feelings around him and the loneliness, the, the better I am.

There's a saying grief comes in waves. Mm-hmm. And it is true, 100%. Yeah. And my husband said, "Well, that's terrible. Nicholas isn't gonna be here at the top of the wave or at the bottom of the wave." Yeah. And, and I think the waves are easier to hold onto if you're- If you're in touch with, like, every day, like, okay, [00:19:00] today I'm, I'm really feeling lonely for him and, or today I'm, I'm really upset that, you know, he's never gonna have kids or today, you know, whatever your- Mm-hmm

what, what is the issue in grief? Because it's not one thing. Mm-hmm. Um, or today I'm, I'm mad because, um, I can't give him a phone call and tell him, you know, his favorite team won something. Um, so I think the more in touch I've been, the, the better it's been. Mm-hmm. And so reflecting on your life before then, you know, in terms of presence and really kind of finding the moment- Yeah

what would you say, what would you say your experience- Yeah ... of life was before, yeah? I think I was halfway there, you know, just planning dinners and- Yeah ... activities, and I don't think I was really of- able to notice what, what was going on inside of me. I've- Mm-hmm ... we, I live a very slow life now. Yeah. It's a [00:20:00] lot more quiet.

Um, with the trimesters of grief, the whole s- theory is that I had to deliver this grief. Mm-hmm. And a lot of days I'll sit down and try to picture, what does my grief look like today? And usually it's a little orangutan, and he's got crazy hair, and I feel like it's something that Nicholas and I made together.

Y- just kind of like how the placenta is something that two people make together, and it's my job to kind of take care of this grief from now on. Mm-hmm. Sometimes the orangutan is just a, you know, in a terrible mood, and other times, you know, he's, he's able to go to the grocery store with me and, and we can handle it.

Mm. But, um, but the person before would not have been able to. I think she would've pushed all of the emotions down and just been like, "We'll deal with this later. It's gonna be fine." Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. Whereas now I think [00:21:00] it's like, yeah, I gotta deal with it today. Yeah. Yeah, that's really powerful. So I mean, I think that, um, art, you know, mirrors life in lots of ways.

Mm. Um, and I know that you've got a lot of that, in the theme within your book where the trimester journey of pregnancy is mirroring your grief. Yeah. So tell us a bit about, that mirror, and how helpful it was for you as you leant into your creativity and, you're writing this book, to really see that mirror between, your art and what you're producing and, and your life experience as a mother.

Well, I think it's important to, with these big emotions, it's kind of nice to put a framework with them. Otherwise, they just feel unwieldy and you can't, um, not contain them, but just you can't understand them. Like, it's, it, it's important to try to put them within context. Um, right after [00:22:00] Nicholas died, we have a tree, and he, when he was a baby, he helped us, you know, dig the dirt and put the tree into our backyard, and it's still here, and Nicholas isn't.

Mm-hmm. And that just blew me away, and the first time that I could put the feelings of that, that tree is here and Nicholas isn't, it was, it, it was so powerful to me to be able to write about it and have a framework for this little box is, is a certain kind of grief. And then I could let that be a little bit, and I didn't have to carry it with me so much.

Mm-hmm. Um, there's a musician, his name is Nick Cave. I don't know if you know who he is. Mm-hmm. He... Oh, you do? Okay. Yeah. He lost two sons, and he talks about how grief used to be inside of him and how he delivered grief, and that's kind of my analogy [00:23:00] too. Um, that analogy is just so helpful because it doesn't feel like grief has to, like, live inside and just be, like, nose to nose with me.

Um. Mm-hmm. And also the mirror. Uh, so I'm a science teacher. I, I taught AP Biology and Human Anatomy, and I think that that's been really interesting for me because I've tried to look at how different biological systems act together- Mm-hmm ... and kind of think about my own grief journey or what's going on in our life and how those kind of mirror one another.

Yeah. And, and that's been really helpful. Mm-hmm. Our, uh, our lake outside of our house right now has a lot of invasive, uh, s- red slider turtles. They come from Africa, so somebody's, like, tossed one turtle or two turtles in, and now we have a lake full of turtles. Okay. Yeah. And now I'm [00:24:00] like, "Yes, this is a great analogy for what's going on in my life."

Like, I feel like some days it's like the, the addiction that Nicholas went through, like, it was this terrible turtle, and it overrode his system- Mm-hmm ... until there was almost, like, nothing he could do about it. Mm-hmm. Um, and maybe it's silly to be able to kinda look at how, um, life mirrors science or science mirrors what's really going on with humans.

But it, I don't know. Make, putting things in context also, it does make it easier to think about them and realize that you're not alone. Do you think, you know, um, looking at, um, you know, we- we're trying to find meaning really, aren't we? Do you think it's helping you to anchor, you know, your grief so that it's not sort of floating around?

You know, it's almost like- Yeah ... if you can find something tangible to relate it to. So it's almost like, you know, [00:25:00] the, the creative seasons we have mirror nature, you know? It's that sort of concept, and it's the same for you with the biology piece and the, the, the biology of a woman going through that pregnancy period and then giving birth, you know, as you were doing with your grief.

So yeah, it's an anchor, I think. Do you agree with that? It really... I 100% agree with that. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't know who came up with the saying, "Grief is love with nowhere to go." Mm-hmm. I've looked, and there have been a few. And it's a nice saying, it just doesn't... Like, it bothered me. Like- Yeah ... I would go to bed and lay there and be like, "My love has somewhere to go.

It has-" Yeah ..."It needs to go to Nicholas." Like, I need it to go to Nicholas. This other messy stuff over here, this, like, anger, this- Yeah ... disappointment, just all this other just terrible, like, sadness. That is, that is not my love. No. So I needed, I, I needed a way, as you said, to anchor those, those things- Yeah

down. [00:26:00] But your book is also holding all of that for you as well. It's holding the light and the darkness. You know? Yeah. It's, it's providing that for you as well, that anchor and that soft space for it to be held. So that's- Yeah ... beautiful. And your art is... Do you feel like your, your art is that way too for you?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think- Like, maybe it's like your journal ... I mean, I think that our, um, our journey, you know, our evolution and our personal journey or our spiritual journey- Yeah ... is massively tied to our creative journey, you know, and how we express that, and how we allow ourselves to be held by it.

Because- Yeah ... that creative process, it allows you to process, um, you know, what's going on for you emotionally and, you know- your experiences, your grief, you know, whatever, um, you're going through. Um, and to, you know, I'm not saying it goes away completely, but it's going to help you release some of that tension and that energy and transform it into something else that is tangible.

[00:27:00] Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. So it's so powerful. Yeah. The word transform, metabolize- Mm ... those are really good words for this- Yeah ... because it's so big and it can't ... It has to be tended to. Yeah. And, you know, y- with the love has nowhere to go, um- Yeah ... thing that you just mentioned, you know, that's sad, right? Like, now you've got love, you know, infused into something that you created, something beautiful that other people can- Yeah

witness and, and, you know, use to process their own grief, so. Right. That's the transformation. Yeah. I, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. W- when I watch my husband play the guitar, and it's usually like- Mm-hmm ... it's usually, uh, uh, songs that are very sad. Okay. Um, I don't know. There's just, you just, you're like, "Okay, 100%, I have no idea what feeling that is, [00:28:00] but that is the exact feeling- Mm-hmm

that I'm feeling." Mm. But he's expressing it and releasing it as he's doing that. Yeah. So it's so good. Yeah. Mm. 

There, there's a book by, um, Colin Campbell. Uh, he wrote Finding the Words. Okay. I don't know if you've read it. It's a grief book. He lost two kids, um, and from a drunk driver. Okay. Um, and one suggestion he had was to say yes to everything, which sounds like a terrible movie.

Yeah. And I... Before Nicholas passed, I would say I was an introvert. Okay. And, and then once he... And my husband would be like, "Oh, kinda, maybe you're an introvert." But I- ... I li- I, I, I really like to be alone. So this was a challenge for me. Mm-hmm. And I had a lot of people coming over saying like, "Come for a walk.

Go, let's go do this. Let's-" Yeah ... you know, "Let's go get a [00:29:00] pedicure," something I did not wanna do. Um, or, "Hey, could you drive me to, um, my chemo?" And I would be like, "Are you kidding? My son just died." Like, no. But I, I ended up saying yes because of that book, and the more I said yes, the more I wanted to say yes.

And- Mm ... I think there is something that to having community- And letting people into your story and, and most of those people are people who have encouraged me with my poems and with my writing Mm-hmm Uh, one of the people who I, I would never have become friends with just because she was really young.

I'm like, "Uh, she's asking me to go for a walk." And, and, and there's a, a park near us and I was like, "Why would she wanna go for a walk with me?" You know, I'm in my 50s- Mm-hmm ... she's in her 30s. Like, but she ends up having a, um, a publishing business, [00:30:00] and she's like, "Your poems are touching me." And it was just so beautiful to see that, uh, that saying yes to somebody and doing something where I would think, oh, I'm not doing this for me, I'm doing it only for them.

In reality, that kind of... It's always both ways, and the more I can give, honestly, the more I, I, I have been able to receive. Mm. But it's also about choosing things that feel aligned as well, right? So on some level, because you're a lot more present, you know, in your life, you know- Yeah ... you're saying yes to things that match that energy, that presence, and, um, you know, you're able to choose things that are more aligned.

I think now I am, but I think back then- No? Yeah. Well, maybe- Back then I was saying yes to ev- Well, maybe that's part of the journey. Yeah, yeah ... do you want a cupca- It was awful. Yeah. Do you want a- But maybe that's part of the journey ... do you want a casserole? Yes. We would love a casserole. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think when [00:31:00] you're really down, you just need to start taking those baby steps. Yeah, yeah, sure. But it also helps you to... If your life before was not present, and you were not- Yeah ... really in touch with that inner voice and listening to that inner voice, right? You've got to do something to f- to figure that inner voice out, right?

So you've gotta say yes maybe to more things so that you can say- Yeah ... "Actually, that really wasn't aligned," and so next- Yeah ... time you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool. So we touched on it briefly, but, you know, d- do you believe that the creative process, you know, helps you to connect with something bigger?

Um, you know, connection to spirit, connection to the divine, God, or your son. tell us about more about your experience with that. I, well, I, I think before this I, I didn't know what I believed and I still don't know what I believe. Yeah. But I do think that there have been times where something's happened and it's not

There isn't a logical [00:32:00] explanation. Yeah. And I think that if I can sit with those things and like write a poem about them or w- sometimes I've woken up in the middle of the night and there's been like a thought and I've been like, "Oh, I wonder if Nicholas wanted me to think that?" Mm-hmm. And then I've been writing about it.

Mm-hmm. A lot of times I feel like there's real deep meaning, at least for me, in it. So I feel ... I don't know. Maybe there's nothing after we die but I really want there to be something. Mm-hmm. I would love to see Nicholas again and I feel like there have been little glimmers of hope that- During my writing and kind of the more present I am, the, the more I kind of feel like, hey, maybe that is something.

Maybe that was a little thing from Nicholas that you need to pay attention to. Mm. Yeah, beautiful. And do you think that as [00:33:00] you've kind of gone through the writing process, have you kind of had moments where you're like, "Where did that come from?" You know? That, like, that surprised me. You know? Yeah, or who wrote that?

Yeah, that's part of it too, right? Yeah. It's kind of like, ooh. Yeah. It just flowed through me. It wasn't really something I was consciously thinking about and consciously, you know, expressing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I have a therapist because, you know- Yeah ... I've needed a lot of support and she has this little sandbox where you're supposed to act out things.

I don't know, I've never used the sandbox for anything. Mm-hmm. And she's like, "Oh yeah, I, we don't usually do anything with it." And at the end of m- one of my sessions recently I said, "You know, I feel really alone. I, I really f- I miss Nicholas. I miss the little kid Nicholas. I, I, I wanna connect with him." And as we were walking out she's like, "What is that?"

And there was a little kid handprint in the sandbox. Mm. And I was like, "Oh, do you [00:34:00] have little kids?" And she's like, "I have no idea how there was a little kid handprint here." And maybe there was a little kid who made a handprint that she- Yeah ... didn't notice. Yeah. But I'm taking that handprint. Yeah. And I took a picture and then I put my hand next to it.

Um, so yeah, I, I think being open and being curious- Mm, mm-hmm ... is a good thing and I think that's good for creativity and also- Mm ... or maybe figuring out what i- what's my purpose, why am I here- Yeah ... and, and how do I connect with, with Nicholas. Yeah. So. And, and it really doesn't matter either because that handprint, it made you feel better, right?

Yeah. Yeah. It made you feel better so it's a win. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And, and I feel like there's a poem in there. I keep like thinking about it- Oh, yeah ... and asking Nicholas, like- Yeah ... hey, what am I gonna connect that to? [00:35:00] So. Yeah. It'll come. That'll come. Yeah. Yeah. It feels like it's quite important, you know?

Yeah. Um, so it'll come. Yeah. So for all the women who are curious about using creativity to process grief, you know, and find more meaning and purpose in, in, in it, what powerful message or question would you like to leave them with today? Hmm. Well, that their creativity's in them. I have a friend who's like s- who always says, "I am not a creative person."

Yeah. Well, if I am a creative person, then you are. Mm-hmm. I don't know what the purpose of art is if it isn't just to connect with something deep inside of you that kind of clicks and makes you feel like this is right. This is, this is real. Mm. So- Mm ... to find that, and I think you can find that in music, in dance, in pottery, in [00:36:00] poetry, in writing.

Um, wa- I, I just started trying to learn how to watercolor. There's just something so, um... Like, it puts you in a trance when you have to be in the moment, and be real, and be your authentic self. And whoever that is, whether whatever is on the page, if it doesn't feel like it's authentic you can toss it. But also just there's some beauty in, in putting something out there.

Mm. And as you said, anchoring a feeling with it or anchoring- Mm ... yourself to it. Mm. So beautiful, so beautiful. So how can people get to know you better and get a real feel for the work that you're doing, Katie? So you can find me at www.katierizzo.com, and there you'll find the two books that are coming out later this year.

Excellent. Thank you so much for coming and chatting with me today. I loved our conversation. [00:37:00] Thank you. No, thank you. Thanks for letting me talk about Nicholas.